14550 Lee Rd, Chantilly, VA 20151

CNLP 363: Jon Tyson on What the Future Church Needs to Do Post-COVID, What Leaders Missed in Rushing Back to Normal, and How to Rest Deeply in an Exhausting Era


By Carey Nieuwhof: Jon Tyson thinks the church missed a moment in rushing to get back to normal after COVID, and is perhaps missing a moment because of our response to racial reconciliation.

As usual, Jon offers some deep insights into this cultural moment, what the future church needs to do, how he and his family recovered from catching Coronavirus, and how to find real rest in the midst of an exhausting era.

Welcome to Episode 363 of the podcast. Listen and access the show notes below or search for the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts and listen for free.

Plus, in this episode’s What I’m Thinking About segment, Carey shares the new characteristics of churches that will be in decline five years from now.

Guest Links

Headshot of Jon Tyson

Instagram | Twitter | Church of the City

Episode Links

Leaders in Living Rooms

I want to introduce you to a great podcast that is a part of my personal repertoire.

It’s from my good friend and leader, Sean Morgan, and it’s called Leaders in Living Rooms. On Leaders in Living Rooms, Sean has backstage conversations, living room style conversations, with leaders like Jud Wilhite, Brady Boyd, Aaron Brockett, David Kinnaman, Kenton Beshore, Brad Lomenick and myself. Sean is a hyper connected leader, and spends a lot of time with founders like me and with their successors to discuss a major issue in church and business, leadership transitions.

Check out Leaders in Living Rooms wherever you get your podcasts, or go to

Remodel Health

The season to reevaluate your health benefits is right around the corner. Are you ready for it?

These times are challenging enough for leaders within churches and faith-based organizations, let alone trying to navigate health insurance questions and rate increases. What if you could have an industry expert come alongside you to not only help you understand your options, but find a solution that could save you and your employees hundreds of thousands of dollars? I know this sounds too good to be true, but I promise you it isn’t.

Remodel Health is the health benefits software and consulting service that helps employers save money and care better for their teams. By switching organizations from traditional group insurance to individual plans for each employee, Remodel Health helps you and your team tap into significant savings on health insurance.

To date, Remodel Health has helped Carey Nieuwhof listeners save $1.5 million in the last year and a half! Imagine what your ministry could do with that extra money. We know right now is a very challenging time for churches, so why not take healthcare off your list of financial stressors? Remodel Health’s benefits consultants can run a free analysis for your unique team to help you evaluate all of your options.

Visit remodelhealth.com/carey today to learn more and get access to their free Savings Calculator, Church Buyer’s Guide and brand new e-book!


Beautiful Resistance by Jon Tyson

The Burden is Light by Jon Tyson

The Corona Virus Experiment by Phil Moore

CNLP 204: Jon Tyson on Reaching Cynics in NYC and What to Do When the Burden of Leadership Feels Too Heavy

CNLP 339: Tim Keller on How to Bring the Gospel to Post-Christian America, How He’d Preach Today if He Was Starting Over Again, Why Founders Get Addicted to Their Churches and Why He Left Redeemer

Mountain Rain by Eileen Crossman

Strange Glory by Charles Marsh

Leaders in Living Rooms podcast featuring Brad Lomenick

Text CAREY 33777 to join more than 70,000 subscribers to our leadership content

Text BETTERVALUES to get Carey’s 3-Step Guide to Developing Better Value Statements


1. The Church is missing a big opportunity during COVID

The Coronavirus has been one of the biggest opportunities for the church to step in and be Jesus to a broken and traumatized world in our lifetime. But rather than reaching out, repenting and changing, we went into hiding and asked, “When can we reopen?”

And in our quest for normalcy, we didn’t learn any of the great lessons we needed to learn in this season.

The normal the church is longing for just isn’t coming back. We keep seeking the old normal rather than asking “What does God want us to do in this season?” When our grandchildren ask us, “What did you do in the coronavirus? And all we can tell them is the list of shows we watched on Netflix, that’s not our best story. Sadly, for many Christians, that’s all this season has meant for us.

2. Politics could be doing more harm than good in your church

The U.S. is a broken and fractured nation. We live in a time of totalized political narratives. Neither political side can concede any ground, and that could be affecting your church. Jon has been a pastor for 20 plus years, and he’s never seen people leave the church over any issue, including sexuality, more than he has over politics. It is by far the most divisive subject to tackle.

He thinks the cause of this is because America is totally secular now, and that means that in our cultural understanding, there isn’t any afterlife. So, we are trying to fit an eternity of justice, joy and happiness into every moment. As the church, we need to offer an alternative to the divided culture, not amplify it from our stage.

3. If you want to share the Gospel with any community, you need to acknowledge their “sacred core”

Every community possesses a non-negotiable belief at the center of it, and until it’s acknowledged, you will not get any openness to have influence with them. For example, if you’re trying to bring the Gospel to someone in the gay community, you need to acknowledge that they think Christians just want to “pray the gay away.”

When Jon approaches this topic with his church, he says:

I know that there’s pain in your heart because you feel like in order for God to love and accept you, you have to become heterosexual. And I just want to say today, that’s not true. The gospel is not a gospel of heterosexuality, and that gay people must become straight. The gospel is the gospel of the Lordship of Jesus and that idea has all sorts of implications”

He then shows that he understands how anxious they must be for coming into a church service talking about homosexuality. When Jon takes this approach, he is gaining the ability to speak to someone in the gay community and for them to actually listen to what he’s preaching.

Quotes from Episode 363

Revival doesn’t happen without repentance. And maybe this was a moment that could have been very different.

Click to Tweet

END .ss-ctt-wrapper

Once you know what a community fears, they’re so easy to manipulate. And Christians fear being uncompassionate. @JonTyson

Click to Tweet

END .ss-ctt-wrapper

Bar a genuine move of God and radical discipleship, statistically we’ve lost the church. We can’t get it back by human means. @davidkinnaman

Click to Tweet

END .ss-ctt-wrapper

If we don’t set the right habits, practices, vision and values deeply enough in the moment of disruption, we will revert back to the previous thing and miss the opportunity. @JonTyson

Click to Tweet

END .ss-ctt-wrapper

Theology is an attempt to understand, but it can also be an attempt to control. @cnieuwhof

Click to Tweet

END .ss-ctt-wrapper

Beauty is a form of resistance against the brokenness of the world. @JonTyson

Click to Tweet

END .ss-ctt-wrapper

The gospel is always bigger than the church. It’s always crossing boundaries. @JonTyson

Click to Tweet

END .ss-ctt-wrapper

Here’s what I know doesn’t advance the gospel—watering the gospel down. @JonTyson

Click to Tweet

END .ss-ctt-wrapper

Christians run in when everyone runs out. @JonTyson

Click to Tweet

END .ss-ctt-wrapper

I believe there is power in the truth, and then when preached prayerfully and humbly, God does the work through it. @JonTyson

Click to Tweet

END .ss-ctt-wrapper

Very few people will be given the cultural influence and power to actually shape history, but all of us have unlimited agency to shape the world around us. @JonTyson

Click to Tweet

END .ss-ctt-wrapper

Shame on us if 50 years from now when our grandchildren ask us, ‘What did you do in the Coronavirus?’ And all you can do is tell them the list out the shows you watched on Netflix. @JonTyson

Click to Tweet

END .ss-ctt-wrapper

What you measure as a leader influences what you value. @cnieuwhof

Click to Tweet

END .ss-ctt-wrapper

The internet is not going away anytime soon, and everybody you want to reach is online. @cnieuwhof

Click to Tweet

END .ss-ctt-wrapper

Different opinions lead to better decisions. @cnieuwhof

Click to Tweet

END .ss-ctt-wrapper

Read or Download the Transcript for Episode 363

Looking for a key quote? More of a reader?

Read or download a free PDF transcript of this episode here.

Watch Back Episodes of The Podcast on YouTube

Select episodes of this podcast are now on YouTube. Our YouTube Channel gives you a chance to watch some episodes, not just listen.


The world is experiencing a series of unprecedented challenges, and you’re leading in the midst of it all.

I’ve got an online, on-demand course, called How to Lead Through Crisisthat can help you lead your team, your church and yourself through the massive disruption.

The course is the gift from me and my team to you and leaders everywhere. In light of everything that’s going on, we decided to make it available 100% free.

Inside How to Lead Through Crisisyou’ll learn how to:

Cultivate a non-anxious presence that inspires confidence and trust.
Care for yourself so the crisis doesn’t break you.
Master the art of fast-paced, clear decision making.
Gather and interpret the most reliable data that will advance your mission
Advance digitally to scale past physical barriers and grow your outreach.
Lead your team and congregation remotely

While no one has all the answers in a crisis this big, in the course, I share the mindsets, habits, tools and strategies that I believe will help you lead through crisis to get you and the people you lead to a new (and better) future.

You can enroll and get instant access for you and your team here.

Subscribed Yet?

Subscribe for free and never miss out on wisdom from world-class leaders like Brian Houston, Andy Stanley, Craig Groeschel, Nancy Duarte, Henry Cloud, Patrick Lencioni, Francis Chan, Ann Voskamp, Erwin McManus and many others.

Subscribe using your favorite podcast app via

Apple Podcasts


Google Play



Spread the Word. Leave a Rating and Review

Hopefully, this episode has helped you lead like never before. That’s my goal. If you appreciated it, could you share the love?

The best way to do that is to rate the podcast on Apple Podcasts and leave us a brief review! You can do the same on Stitcher and on TuneIn as well.

Your ratings and reviews help us place the podcast in front of new leaders and listeners. Your feedback also lets me know how I can better serve you.

Thank you for being so awesome.

Next Episode: Nik Wallenda

Nik Wallenda has set numerous tightrope walking world records, including being the first man to cross Niagara Falls, and wirewalking across Times Square, the Grand Canyon and more. Nik talks about how to train for adverse conditions, responding to failure and constantly changing conditions, how to reposition your mission when your model breaks, and how to push past fear and anxiety.

Subscribe for free now so you won’t miss Episode 364.

CNLP 363: Jon Tyson on What the Future Church Needs to Do Post-COVID, What Leaders Missed in Rushing Back to Normal, and How to Rest Deeply in an Exhausting Era

The post CNLP 363: Jon Tyson on What the Future Church Needs to Do Post-COVID, What Leaders Missed in Rushing Back to Normal, and How to Rest Deeply in an Exhausting Era appeared first on CareyNieuwhof.com.

Source: CNLP 363: Jon Tyson on What the Future Church Needs to Do Post-COVID, What Leaders Missed in Rushing Back to Normal, and How to Rest Deeply in an Exhausting Era